ON GUNS AND US SOCIETY
I’ve recently been in a discussion with someone online about whether or not we can handle being a gun-worshiping society. Here’s how it went. I start with:
—————————————————–
Our.
Society.
Can’t.
Handle.
Guns.
Before you say “I have a gun and I would never ____________”. I could own a flamethrower and would never ______________. Doesn’t mean I should own one.
It’s not about “you”. It’s about us. US!!! Our society. Our culture. Since the late 1970s, thanks to the leadership coup of the NRA, the mainstream message of gun ownership shifted from gun safety to the 2nd amendment focus, things have gone astray.
Why?
Because the focus on 2nd amendment was coupled with both the paranoia that the guvment is gonna take all our guns away!!! And that owning a gun will “keep us safe”. And then you have the glorification of vigilante justice in our culture… This is how we got here.
We should no longer be able to own guns. I would not have said that 15 years ago, but it’s the reality of our society today. Realistically, we need to at the very least have much more restrictive gun ownership.
But then the guvment….
What. You think your guns are gonna protect you for the government??? For my entire life and beyond, you have voted for the person who promised to spend more on the military to “keep our nation strong!!!”. YOU DID!!! But you want to have a gun to try and fight a government that YOU armed to the teeth. 800 billion per year and climbing.
You gave them drones for crying out loud. If you decide you’re really gonna fight the guvment, they’ll take you out before you see it coming.
Having more and more guns obviously does NOT make our society safer. And no, I’m not “anti-gun”. I don’t come to this conclusion lightly. Just like flamethrowers, our society can’t handle the responsibility of gun ownership.
A friend who disagrees responds:
———————————————–
Agree to Disagree Mike…There are 5x more deaths by knives in the U.S. yearly than by Rifles…and yet NOBODY is trying to band knives or your right to buy and carry one. You do not have to register your knife, nor do you have to wait 10 days or pass a background check in order to buy one. You do not have to take a certified safety course or pass a written test to buy one. You do not have to be over 21 or show I.D. to buy one.
The truth is there is a 0.000102566410256% chance of death by firearm in the U.S. if you take suicides and gang related shootings out of the mix there is a 0.000008564102564% chance of death by firearm in the U.S.
The U.S. has the HIGHEST rate of gun ownership in the entire world and yet we rank 28th in gun related violence.
Handguns are responsible for over 80% of all mass shootings…Not AR-15 style rifles
Gun ownership has increased by 56% since 1993 and yet gun violence decreased by nearly half
Since 1950 almost ALL mass shootings have occurred in GUN FREE zones
the states that have banned open carry experience much higher rates of police deaths than states the approve open carry
People who have concealed carry permits on average commit less crime than law enforcement officers
1.35 million people die each year in an automobile (That is 3700 a day) and yet NOBODY is trying to band cars and trucks
More people die from the flu than by gun in the U.S. each year…
10x times as many people died from being overweight last year in the U.S. than by firearm…but nobody is trying to ban spoons and forks
More people die from Blunt Force Trauma in the U.S. each year than by firearm and yet nobody has to wait 10 days and pass a background check to buy a baseball bat
There are almost 400 million guns in the U.S with trillions of rounds of ammunition in circulation and yet less than 1/10 of 1% of Americans die by firearm each year…you honestly stand a better chance of being struck by lightning…
Gun violence is NOT and epidemic in the U.S. you are being misled and flat out lied to by the Media and liberal politicians and people who want to see America disarmed and brought to it’s knees
the are between 11.5 and 16 million registered Hunters in the U.S. in comparison the Chinese Military (the largest in the world) has just under 3 million…
Certain private individuals and elements in the U.S. government fear this private army…look at what happened in 1776
56 Million People have been Exterminated due to Gun Control measures in the 20th century. Every genocide in modern history has started with a gun registration and gun control measures
and armed man is a citizen an unarmed man is a subject…
You will never change my mind on this subject….and you can have mine when you pry them from my cold dead fingers…
And:
if you notice later in my post i did say 80% of all mass shootings deaths are due to handguns…have you ever noticed that when someone is stabbed they blame the knife wielder, when someone is killed by a car they blame the driver, when someone is killed by a bomber they blame the bomber, and yet when people are killed by a gun they blame the gun and not the person pulling the trigger why is that!? Ben Franklin said it best…”Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.” none of the current arguments can change history it’s a fact that 56 Million People have been Exterminated due to Gun Control measures in the 20th century. Every genocide in modern history has started with a gun registration and gun control measures…you allow them to roll back the 2nd amendment then what’s next, the first!? the fourth!? how can people forget history!? In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated. China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million ‘educated’ people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million….Statistically you stand a better chance of being struck by lightning that being killed by a gun in America…Gun ownership has increased by 56% since 1993 and yet gun violence decreased by nearly half…Every year over 30,000 people die from a gun-related death. The vast majority of these deaths are suicides. The majority of the remaining deaths are from the inner-city gang and drug violence. The remaining is Generalized violence and accidents.
As tragic as these deaths are, we have 400 million guns and over 300 million people in this country.
30,000 is roughly .01%. Not 1% and not .1% but .01% of the population. That is exceedingly far from the epidemic that anti-gun politicians constantly claim. In 2000 Maryland spent 5 million dollars on a bullet ID program. The program lasted 15 years and didn’t solve a single crime. Not a single one. The city of Chicago in 1982 instituted a ban on handguns. This ban barred civilians from possessing handguns except for those registered with the city government prior to enactment of the law. The law also specified that such handguns had to be re-registered every two years or owners would forfeit their right to possess them. In 1994, the law was amended to require annual re-registration. In the wake of Chicago’s handgun ban, at least five suburbs surrounding Chicago instituted similar handgun bans. Since the outset of the Chicago handgun ban, the percentage of Chicago murders committed with handguns has averaged about 40% higher than it was before the law took effect!!!!!
On October 1, 1987, Florida’s right-to-carry law became effective…Since the outset of the Florida right-to-carry law, the Florida murder rate has averaged 36% lower than it was before the law took effect!!!! In January 1996, Texas’s right-to-carry law became effective….Since the outset of the Texas right-to-carry law, the Texas murder rate has averaged 30% lower than it was before the law took effect!!! Between 1994 and 2004, the federal government banned the manufacture, sale, or transfer of assault weapons and large-capacity magazines. A subsequent Department of Justice study found no evidence that the ban had had any effect on gun violence and stated that “should it be renewed, the ban’s effects on gun violence are likely to be small at best and perhaps too small for reliable measurement.” A recent study published in the Journal of General Internal Medicine examined state gun control policies and found no statistically significant relationship between assault weapon or large-capacity magazine bans and homicide rates. A Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) study came to the same conclusion. I am sensitive to the very real problem of gun deaths in this country. But none of those deaths, tragic as they are, negate my fundamental right and duty to protect myself and my loved ones from harm. We can debate new laws that may have an effect on the margins, but most gun deaths reflect much broader problems in American society. Those who make the policies need to address the underlying causes of gun deaths AND NOT THE GUNS — particularly suicide, drug prohibition, and domestic violence, on their own terms without abridging law-abiding Americans’ fundamental right to self-defense. But the conversation in the media has been dominated by extremists on both sides and by people, who have no idea what they’re actually talking about. I’m a man who fully understands that self-defense ISN’T an abstract concept, and that more can be done to reduce gun deaths. But the answer is not an all out ban on Guns!!!!
——————————————————
There is so much to unpack. This is not an original response. Back in the day I heard Rush Limbaugh and other conservative pundits using the same arguments, many of which are now outdated. Here is my response to some of the flaws:
There are a couple of flaws in the stats as presented. A rifle is a specific type of gun. Knives, on the other hand, include all knives. It’s a very broad category. In 2021 over 48,000 people died by gun. That include accidental deaths and suicide. I can’t find a stat for knife death that includes accidental death and suicide. So, since knife deaths are only listed by murder, we should only use murder stats in 2021 for both:
Murder by gun: 20,138.
Murder by knife: 1,035.
Neither stat includes those injured.
“Blame the guns”… Whether people do or don’t is irrelevant, and a diversion. It doesn’t matter if people blame guns or not. Note that my original post does not “blame guns”, but our love, worship, and false belief they are the giver of security.
Now onto the countries listed with the assertion that gun control equals tyranny and genocide. There are many more countries that have gun controls and do not fit into the tyranny / genocide box, including England, France, Germany, Spain, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Greece, Thailand, etc.
In Israel, anyone who desires to own a gun must pass through a rigorous screening process, including physical and mental health, criminal background, and the process is repeated every three years. I would totally support that.
I’m not sure if we’ve discussed it, but I’m a former history teacher. The Franklin quote is completely out of context.
First – It was written in 1755 during the French Indian wars. He was part of the Pennsylvania state assembly. They had repeatedly sent bills to the Governor to fund the war effort. Governor refused to sign the bill because they included tax on the Penn family owned property. The Governor during that time was not voted in by the public or appointed by the legislature, he was appointed by the Penn family. The Penn family had offered to provide funding directly. Franklin was specifically noting that the Penn family, who resided in England, was trying to cede the power of taxation away from the legislature, and as we know from the revolution a couple of decades later, Franklin was very much against being ruled from afar, an “essential liberty” of the people and its government. “To purchase a little temporary safety” would be the compromise of having the Penns provide the funds, thus in effect purchasing the army.
Second – This was written in 1755. There was no Constitution or Bill of Rights. No 2nd amendment, thus no applicable in this debate.
People often get Third Reich Germany and gun control wrong. Prior to the rise of Nazi rule, as per compliance with the Treat of Versailles in 1919, most German citizens were not allowed to own guns. There was some relaxing of the hard line prohibition in 1928, but still gun ownership was very restrictive. After the Nazis took control, they passed new gun legislation in 1938, the German Weapons Act. Though gun ownership was not completely deregulated, the legislation relaxed many of the restrictions of the past two decades. Later in the year, the Nazis would pass the Regulations Against Jews Possessions Of Weapons Act, which continued the ban put in place by the previous government, but only for Jews. But, as a whole gun ownership became easier for the average German under Nazi rule.
A couple more things about that copy and paste response:
“Since 1950 almost ALL mass shootings have occurred in GUN FREE zones”
That is a quote from John Lott Jr:
“””The Crime Prevention Research Center, of which I am president, recently finished updating a list of mass public shootings worldwide. These shootings must claim four or more lives in a public place. Following the FBI definition, the shootings we list are carried out simply with the intention of killing. We exclude gang fights because they tend to be motivated by battles for drug turf. Murders that arise from other crimes are also excluded.”””
In order to make this talking point valid, he has to exclude data. The problem here is that by excluding “gang fights”, Lott removes data that otherwise fits the FBI definition. Many shootings are not “mass shootings”, but the result is still the same – someone dies at the end of a gun. Also note that Lott completely leaves out those injured and permanently disabled due to being shot. The stat on that is proving to be elusive (possibly in part due to the prohibitions place of government research of gun violence due to the Dickey Amendment in 1996 which prohibits government agencies from properly documenting gun related issues). There are somewhere between 100,000 to 120,000 injured by firearm. Add in the deaths, and you have roughly 148,000 to 158,000 affected by gun violence.
“””On October 1, 1987, Florida’s right-to-carry law became effective…Since the outset of the Florida right-to-carry law, the Florida murder rate has averaged 36% lower than it was before the law took effect!!!!”””
Again, a flawed stat. As you yourself mention above, people are murdered in more ways than just via gun. Further, when isolated for gun related deaths Florida does not seen to benefit from the law. Out of the 50 states, as of 2021, they are ranked 33rd from most gun deaths per capita. Texas, another right-to-carry state, is 28th. States with the highest gun ownership and more lax gun laws have the highest gun related death rates per capita. Mississippi, Louisiana, Wyoming, Missouri, Alabama, and Alaska are the top six in gun death per capita, and have high guns per capita. States with lower gun ownership and more restrictions have less gun deaths per capita.
Finally…
“””There are almost 400 million guns in the U.S with trillions of rounds of ammunition in circulation and yet less than 1/10 of 1% of Americans die by firearm each year…you honestly stand a better chance of being struck by lightning…”””
Whaaaa????
On average, 300 people get struck by lightning in the US each year. On average, that’s less than the amount of people who get shot on a single day.
If you’re going to advocate for gun ownership, I’d find better sources to make the pitch.
Uncategorized | Sonicfrog April 20, 2023 | 
Comments (0)
